How Stupid They Are

‘Goes to Show You How Stupid They Are’: Tillis Lets Loose on Trump Advisers

The retiring Republican senator opens up about his YOLO approach and why he’s occasionally taken on Trump.

By Jordain Carney

Sen. Thom Tillis isn’t afraid to give his party, or the president, a dose of bitter medicine.

In an interview with POLITICO Magazine in his Capitol Hill Office, the retiring North Carolina Republican said his criticism — whether it’s directed at White House “sycophants” or an “incompetent” Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth who he wants to see fired — has the same end game: protecting Republicans’ Senate majority and Donald Trump’s legacy.

“I’ve made it clear to the president that my beef is with people who are giving him some sense that some of the decisions he makes are not without significant consequence,” he said. “And the consequence, in my opinion, is his legacy, and our election in November.”

Tillis announced last year that he would retire after two terms in the Senate, even as he’s relatively-young-for-a-senator at 65 years old, and he’s since been one of his conference’s most frequent troublemakers for Trump. He was a one-man blockade for Kevin Warsh’s Federal Reserve nomination until the Justice Department dropped its pursuit of Jerome Powell, and he has sunk nominees seen as Jan. 6 apologists. He said he is ready to “nuke” the administration’s new “anti-weaponization” fund.

And while he batted down the notion that he’s now in his YOLO era — “I’ve been YOLOing all my life” — he acknowledged that he can now speak out without having to worry about having his words used against him by Democrats or members of his own party back home.

Tillis’ political freedom has made him stand out in the Senate for being willing to say what many of his GOP colleagues are thinking but won’t put their name to. But while Trump has publicly criticized the senator at times, Tillis said the two still have a good, professional relationship.

“We’ve continued to have solid communications,” Tillis said. “But I’m not going to kiss this man’s ass or anybody else’s when I believe he’s not in a good place.”

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Bill Cassidy lost his primary, Trump endorsed Ken Paxton over John Cornyn, and Thomas Massie lost. Do you think there is room in the party right now for people who disagree with the president?

I think you’re probably going to see an increasing number of people disagree with the president as the primary cycles move on, and his contribution in [general elections] really depends on what state you’re in.

As we get closer to November, people will be even more and more attuned to “How does this help me politically, how is it good, sound policy and politics?”

You broke with the president before you announced you were retiring — Ed Martin’s nomination being a prime example — but do you think you are more liberated now?

Every time I’ve disagreed with the president it’s been almost exclusively because I think it’s divergent from Republicans’ interest in getting reelected this November. Every single time. The health care policy that got air dropped in the “big beautiful bill,” I knew it was going to be a problem. It is a problem now. Now everybody sees that. That’s why I objected to the reconciliation last year.

The reason I’m objecting to the ballroom and the slush fund for the DOJ — bad politics, really bad timing, bad policy. I mean, that’s the trifecta. Every time I have opposed this president is because I believe it’s at odds with getting Republicans reelected.

You’ve made the distinction frequently between what the president is doing and what some of his advisors might be advising him to do. Is that distinction important in your mind?

Yeah, I’ve tried to use the analog in the private sector. Do you really believe that the CEO of a Fortune 50 company can possibly know everything that there is to know about running that company? So I think other than maybe the president’s own instincts, invariably somebody is getting him to one position or another, you get rid of those folks and get some quality people behind them, and you will see different outcomes.

I think now, a lot of the sycophants over in the White House are just into this, “We don’t even need to deal with Congress.” It’s almost a brush aside, and that’s a mistake. It will have long-term negative consequences for the president and his legacy, and yes, I blame it on his advisers.

You’ve mentioned Stephen Miller by name before but are there other advisers that you are thinking of?

I think Hegseth misinformed him on the challenges [of Iran]. I suspect that Hegseth cast aside concerns he was hearing from some of the finest people that ever served in uniform and took his cowboy-ish approach to going into Iran. I’m glad the president did what he did in Iran. I’m not glad that he has Hegseth advising him on the details.

I think Hegseth is largely responsible for why we’re in this, “Are we in a war? Are we not in a war? Are we in a cease fire? Are we not in a cease fire? Do we have a deal? Do we not have a deal? Are they going to have nuclear capabilities? Are they not going to?” All of that I’ll lay at the feet of Pete Hegseth and his incompetence.

What are your views on this “anti-weaponization” fund the administration has created and is there anything you think Congress can do to put guardrails on that?

I don’t have any interest in seeing that money go over. It’s an embarrassment to think that Republicans came up with this idea.

I mean this is coming back from Police Week last week, and now we’re doing what I think is probably the most insulting thing you could possibly do to Capitol Police and the responding law enforcement agencies that are on that plaque in the Capitol now.

But is there anything you think Congress can do?

Yeah, nuke it.

Will this fund impact how you are thinking about attorney general nominees? Todd Blanche didn’t rule out that it could go to Jan. 6 defendants and is a possible nominee.

It will absolutely go into the mix, as will some of the prosecutions that have moved forward, a number of other things will go into the mix in my consideration for whether or not an AG gets confirmed.

When you say prosecutions, which ones do you mean?

I’m thinking about the picture that right now is the only basis I have for a new indictment against Comey. Some of the other bogus lawsuits from now no-longer-acting acting U.S. attorneys. All that, I want to know whose fingerprints were on it. I don’t think big DOJ knew about the Powell investigation, so I wouldn’t hold that against them, that was a boneheaded move in the bowels of DOJ. But anything where they were in the decision loop, yeah, they got a lot of questions to answer to get my support.

What is your relationship with the president like?

We’ve continued to have solid communications. We haven’t probably talked for a week or two, but we had a flurry of probably either two or three phone calls or text exchanges over the past month. I will have a good relationship with the president for as long as he wants to, and then I’ll have whatever relationship he wants to have if he changes his mind. Right now, it’s been mutual respect.

I’ve made it clear to the president that my beef is with people who are giving him some sense that some of the decisions he makes are not without significant consequence, and the consequence, in my opinion, is his legacy, and our election in November in reverse order.

Right now, I’m worried about the election in November. I’m also concerned with his legacy, because, as I’ve told the president before, I actually care about his legacy as a Republican, and as somebody who wants every president to be successful, and Republicans especially more so, he has people working for him who couldn’t give a shit about his legacy. This is just another ticket they punch as they go up the ladder.

Do you think some people would be surprised that you have a good relationship with the president?

Yeah I think they don’t believe it. The president and I have never had a heated discussion. I remember back when I filed the Mueller bill, he was frustrated with it, but there was no threatening. You know, he and I both use profanity, but that’s usually in equal measure. People will never know what we talk about, because I don’t share private information, but these are discussions that I’ve had ongoing.

I called him Saturday morning a couple of weeks ago, he answered the phone. He wasn’t happy with me, because it was in the middle of the Warsh thing. He was frustrated, but I’ve had a professional relationship. I hope I finish my career on that foot — purely up to the president.

Do you think part of it is because you don’t leak your conversations — or some other reason?

I think the president reserves a certain amount of his capacity for people that he may disagree with, but maybe he respects the fact that they have the courage to speak to the most powerful man in the world in a way that they should if they’re interested in his well-being and the well-being of the Republican Party. Other people may have a different way to engage him, but I’m not going to kiss this man’s ass or anybody else’s when I believe he’s not in a good place.

You mentioned to me earlier this year that you think Republicans hold the Senate. Is that still your expectation?

I think the path gets narrower, but I think we hold the Senate. I get that maybe some of the redistricting makes everyone feel like we’ve got a better shot at holding the House. I still find it very difficult because you’ve marginalized some districts by reducing the partisan advantage. I think you’ve got the potential for a kind of a historic sort of wave election where some of our folks stay home and some of our opponents’ folks come out more than normal.

Why do you think Republicans keep the Senate? Democrats believe they have a real chance.

I think they definitely have a chance. If you’d asked me a year ago, I would have found it impossible to believe that they would even have a chance, but I still put us being at 50 or with a majority in the 75th percentile.

If you guys lose the House does that change the dynamic — does it force the administration to reckon with Congress more?

No. That’s why we’ve got to lower the temperature, try to find ways to work with Democrats. My guess is, if they get a gavel in the House, they will come in with a fury and vindictiveness that I don’t know what happens in that Congress next year.

The party that starts acting like the consensus builder, they’re the ones who are going to gain this nation back and govern it again. In between, it looks like it’s just going to be political ping pong, which is unproductive and really not in the best interest of the American people.

What do you think your party looks like in 2028 and beyond?

It’s kind of hard to judge that, because you’re going to have the MAGA base, you’re going to have some other candidates come on the scene that are going to want some of the MAGA base.

Look, you’ve got a party right now that can’t call itself truly conservative. It’s become a populist party that has embraced policies first put forth by Elizabeth Warren, for example. Some of the housing policy is not sound conservative free market policy.

Do you have a preferred candidate for 2028?

No, not yet, because I don’t think that, as vice president, JD has any structural advantage going into that election cycle.

I think it’s going to be wide open, and I think it’s going to be people saying, “Are we going to have a populist, not always conservative candidate to choose from? Are we going to have somebody who maybe embraces some of the populist ideals, but believes the party needs to get back to a conservative root? Or is it some sort of upstart with a completely different message?”

Right now we’ve got a real big gap between conservative principles and what we’re standing for right now nationally. Can be a good thing — it got enough votes to get the president elected. I don’t know if it’s enough votes to get enough Republicans elected in Congress,

Do you think all of Trump’s voters stick with the party once he’s not on the ballot anymore?

He gets people out that are not going to vote down-ballot, but when he’s not on the ballot, are they going to come out? I think the answer is probably no. I mean some of these people, they may have never voted for a president before until President Trump.

Are you in your YOLO era?

I’ve actually had a YOLO attitude since the day I decided to run against a two-term Republican incumbent in a primary in North Carolina to begin my legislative career. So I’ve been YOLOing all my life.

The only thing that’s changed [since the retirement announcement] is I don’t have to worry about the cost of the words that I use anymore. If I were running for reelection, I would still want to communicate the same thing, but I may have to sit down and think about every word from every angle, so that I have to spend another $10 million to correct a misconception or B roll that the Democrats get. I don’t have to worry about that.

What are the things you want to get done in the next seven or so months?

I’d love to see Pete Hegseth fired because he’s incompetent and doing a horrible job. That’s kind of on a Christmas wish list, but what I mainly want to do is get Republicans reelected in November, including bringing them back a majority in the House.

As critical as I am of Republicans, a Democrat-controlled Washington concerns me more. It may seem counterintuitive, but every once in a while, you’ve got to recognize when your party’s having problems you want to correct them before it matters, and that is on Election Day.

Do you think the administration is taking into its calculus that some of the actions could hurt your party in November?

I believe that there are people in the White House who couldn’t care less about what happens in November, and that goes to show you how stupid they are.

Because if they don’t get Republicans reelected, they’re going to create the most miserable two years of this president’s life, beginning in 2027. And they will just surf on to something else, saying, “Sorry, boss, didn’t see that coming,” and they’ll just surf off to somebody else to be a parasite on in the future in their little political roles without any accountability whatsoever.